Podcast Interview Marsha Petrie Sue (AllBusiness.com's Chris Bjorklund interviews Marsha Petrie Sue,.)

Chris Bjorklund: You're listening to the AllBusiness podcast. I'm Chris Bjorklund. If you're getting this through iTunes and RSS feed or an online streaming-media player, you can hear interviews with other experts at AllBusiness.com.

Bjorklund: If you need help dealing with people at work who tick you off, listen up. Today's guest is Marsha Petrie Sue, who will explain how to decontaminate the difficult people in your office without using weapons or duct tape. Currently the CEO of her consulting business, Petrie Sue was formerly an executive vice-president with a Fortune 100 company and admits to being a recovering toxic person herself. Marsha, do toxic people usually know they're being toxic? In other words, is this intentional conscious behavior or does it really go deeper than that?

Marsha Petrie Sue: Well, I think it's both ways. Sometimes they do it intentionally but most of the time they don't even know they're going there. Interestingly, I just had some house guests leave and they said, "You know, our son-in-law is very toxic and he doesn't know it. How do we let them know?" So I think there are a couple of approaches that we can take. I think one of the things that we can do is to say, "I have something to bring up and if you're not comfortable with it, just tell me and we won't talk about it." You know and then I can go ahead and launch into toxic people. I think another thing that you can do, and this one of the reasons I wrote the book Toxic People, is that you could say, "You know, I just read this book, Toxic People, and one of the things I hope not to be is a toxic person. Have you ever thought about that?" So it becomes more about you rather than about them.

Bjorklund: You were telling me that you are a recovering toxic person yourself.

Petrie Sue: Yes.

Bjorklund: What were you like?

Petrie Sue: Oh, I was a pain. I was just a pain. I was a combination of all six. At any given time, I could launch into anything. I never had children so I didn't understand why people had to be absent because of child care and I would actually say to people, I would say, "You know, you should have thought about child care before you took this job." That's not nice. That's toxicity.

Bjorklund: Ouch! Ouch!

Petrie Sue: Isn't that terrible? And people would call in ill and I would say, "You know, you can feel just as bad here as you can at home so come in and we'll decide." You know, so I actually had to go to charm school and that was the realization at that company I was working with at the time sent me to charm school and that's when I understood this behavior was something that I could choose to change if I wanted to. And because I wanted to be accepted and liked and promoted, is that I knew I had to change my tone of voice, I had to change my thinking in my head.

Bjorklund: So people can be coached?

Petrie Sue: Yes.

Bjorklund: But getting back to the people on the other end of toxic people, why do most people have such a difficult time, as you say, decontaminating toxic people?

Petrie Sue: I think because they don't take control of their own behavior and they don't understand that you have a choice in every single relationship you have and I always state it, even talking about this, because I had one woman after a presentation as a, you know, professional speaker that this happened. This woman came up to me and she said, "I love your information. I'm going to go home and ask my husband for a divorce!" And so we have to know that we have three choices. We can take it. We can leave it. Or we can change it. And if you take it, it means that you have a plan. In the moment, it may be stressful. You may not feel good about it. But, you know, in the long run you are going to change your habits. You can learn new approaches. The leaving it is probably the most difficult one and I'll bet, Chris, have you ever had to fire a friend?

Bjorklund: You know, I have not had to fire a friend and I hope I never I have to.

Petrie Sue: Good for you. Yeah, it's very, very hard. And we leave it, it means we walk away from it, whether it's a friend, whether it's a job, whether it's a partner. You know, whatever it is, there are times in our lives when that becomes a choice. If it's creating stress for us and we feel totally out of control, we know we're not going to change them no matter what. Then indeed, that is my second choice, is to leave it or reject it. The third one is where I really change. And that is where I become flexible, I know I have the tools that I have in my toolbox, I have learned how to become a really good communicator, whether it's in conflict or outside of conflict and it's totally my capability. And you know, the difference between a rut and a grave is the length and the depth and when I feel buried, I'll pull myself up on my bootstraps and I'll say, "Kiddo, you have got three choices here. Take it, leave it or change it. What's your plan?"

Bjorklund: Now emotions play into all these, I mean, whether you're at work or at home and we can have toxic people at work or at home and sometimes at work, you have a few more options to leave, right? To change jobs. If it's within the family, that's a whole other story.

Petrie Sue: Right, exactly.

Bjorklund: But anyway, we're talking mostly about the workplace today. But how do you train yourself to stay calm when you're dealing with people that you call emotional vampires?

Petrie Sue: That's a good question. And one of the things that we have to realize is we're actually going into the fight-or-flight syndrome and this is how we've evolved as human beings. So one of the things, when you go into fight-or-flight, what happens to you is you actually stop breathing. When you stop breathing you're not receiving oxygen into your brain so that you really can't think properly. So you have to learn to do what we call diaphragmatic breathing and if you do pilates or yoga, you know this breathing. Very deep, it's very refreshing and what it does, 80 percent of your blood vessels are in the bottom of your lungs and when I take a deep breath, I am going to get a surge of oxygen to my brain so I can actually think. I also think that one of the things that we must do is to pause and take a time out. So as we're breathing, as we are and thinking about what we are going to say, take a time out. You do not have to launch right back into having a response to that person. And I think what you have to do is you have to ship out of mental terrorism. You know this, most people do. The right side of the brain is very nonlinear, it's very unfocused. It's highly emotional and that's where your mental terrorism lives. The left side of the brain is where you're focused, you're on target, you're thinking linearly and it really becomes important for us to understand. I have to change that. So if I know that I can change to my left brain where the words are, then I have to train myself. This is why--have you ever noticed how after an emotionally impacted event or conflict, that afterward, like maybe an hour or two, you could think of exactly the right words to say.

Bjorklund: Always.

Petrie Sue: Always. Because in the moment, you're being affected by the mental terrorism. So I can learn to shift to that left brain where the words are so I might memorize them, think like, this is a test, this is only a test, this will not be important in 10 years or 10 minutes or 10 days or whatever. But it's words that I've memorized. So it could be a prayer, it could be a quote, it could be a mantra, it could be anything. But I have to give myself that tool to shift to that left brain.

Bjorklund: So why do people become toxic? It seems as though it's kind of a bad attitude, you know, when you have other choices. Do they have a choice?

Petrie Sue: Sure they do.

Bjorklund: Are they wounded?

Petrie Sue: Well, I think they're wounded and because of their past experience, the pendulum swings and they really become a really difficult person. And I'll tell you why I believe they stay there. Because it's easier. People are basically very lazy and I like to tell people, if you have bad outcomes in your life, if you have difficult people in your life, if you are toxic or you have to deal with other toxic people in your life, it's your fault. You are the one that has to make sure you develop the tools, you develop the communication, you learn the breathing techniques and some of these other things that I talked about in the Toxic People book so that you are in control. It's easier to be toxic than it is to learn to better respond to people and it's all about maturity in my humble opinion.

Bjorklund: What about the types of difficult people that you've identified in your book?

Petrie Sue: Oh, I'm glad you asked that. This was one of the great research things that I did. I identified six different kinds of difficult people. Interviewing just tons of people. I found out there are basically six types and so what we have to do when we're managing that kind of behavior, we have to identify where they are so that I know what response to use. So for an example, we have the steamroller. I don't probably have to even give you any examples of these. The steamroller, the zipper lip (this is also known as the clam), the backstabber, the know-it-all, the needy-weenie (these people just make you nuts because they so want you to be part of their life) and then the whine-and-cheesers (these are the people that anything that happens, oh geesh, well here we go again, we got a pay raise and we're going to have to pay extra taxes on it; you know, nothing is ever good for them).

Bjorklund: So that's all six.

Petrie Sue: That's all six.

Bjorklund: Well, we have asked a few people ahead of time to talk about toxic people they've worked with and the first response that I'm going to play comes from a young woman who works at a movie theater and has a lot of conflict with the assistant manager.

Young woman: She was a stickler to the rules. She just was very strict and she was very, if you did anything wrong she would point it out to you and she didn't know that the situation sometimes dictated other things. So you had to roll with the punches.

Bjorklund: So Marsha, what could this young woman do to better deal with someone who just sticks by those rules and takes things maybe a little too seriously and can't put things into the right context?

Petrie Sue: Well, I would categorize this person as a know-it-all. And what I've learned about a know-it-all, and I have a lot of language identified, is to memorize different words that work. For an example, with a know-it-all I know that asking questions to a know-it-all, I will dig deeper and then it will help them understand what is actually happening. What happens is when we don't learn that a response is, we react. Reacting is a knee jerk. Responding is learned so I have to ask myself in the moment that this person is being such a dip, I have to ask myself, OK, do I choose to react or do I choose to respond? Now if I choose to respond, the language that I want to choose to use there is to say something like, "You presented some really strong arguments here. What would happen if...?" So I want to throw questions back to them to get them to think differently. If I just tell a know-it-all, "No, we need to do it this way." They're going to close their minds even more quickly and more deeply and they're really not going to listen to me.

Bjorklund: Isn't this more difficult if you're a subordinate?

Petrie Sue: I think so but I think that you can become very good at asking questions because it looks like you're interested in your job. It's looks like you want to know more. So if I can say something to a know-it-all, "I need your help." If I use those words in front of anything, even to a superior, a subordinate, a colleague, whoever it might be, if I say, "I need your help, you presented some really strong arguments here, what would happen if...?" And then I ask him a question to dig a little bit deeper. And I also think you bring up a good point. It depends a lot on the delivery. If you say anything that where you have condescension in your voice, where you're talking down to them, if you sound sarcastic or cynical, they are going to know that. People are very smart and they read very, very quickly. Basically, it takes them three seconds to get it. Watch your body language if you're in person with them. You know, don't close those arms off or anything like that. So I have to pay attention to a lot of different perspectives in communication here.

Bjorklund: We have another clip now from a woman who is a set designer for films and commercials and she works with a lot of temperamental people.

Set designer: They know how to do every aspect of everybody's jobs so well that they can't imagine why you're there except that they can't do every job because there's only so many hands on the individual and so many hours in the day. I personally injured myself in circumstances like that. You try and you know, under stress using an Exacto knife to cut something within a deadline, something that would have been easy for me to do but it was just the stress of having somebody looking over my shoulder constantly or, "Why are you doing it like that?"

Bjorklund: Is this just another know-it-all type?

Petrie Sue: Yes it is and it's just a different level of know-it-all and I think the important thing that this woman says is the stress that that person created for me. The stress word is the key word there because we have to understand how these people make that spiel. Because stress is a gift we give ourselves. Some people could hear that same message and not be stressed out and that's why sometimes they, "What do you mean you were stressed out?" That's kind of crazy. So what I need to do is number one, understand what is happening in my own head and how that person is making me feel and I am accepting that information, my perception of them and to understand that and then to say, "OK now, I get how I am responding to this person. Now I need to dig in my toolbox and figure out what language is going to work." And I might suggest saying something like, "So if I heard you correctly, you need the outcome to be... I want to clarify here." So it's a little bit different than the first example but I want to dig a little bit deeper and I also want to play back what they said with the exact words that they said. Because a lot of times, they're being condescending. And so if I play their words exactly back to them, say, "I just want to make sure I got this correctly. What you said was..." and then you play it back and then they will hear that. Now there's another side to this. It also means that in this moment of stress with the toxic person, I need to really listen and nobody in this world today is a great listener. So I talk a lot about listening in the book and developing our own listening skills. I think that is a real critical piece.

Bjorklund: Let's go to the last cut now. This is a business consultant who was lured into a partnership. It seemed pretty sweet going in but it turned sour on the first day.

Business consultant: On the first day that I showed up on the job, as soon as I needed anything to be done, I was just cut off at the knees. I had no secretarial support, I had no resources. She was very oppositional. It was a complete 180 degrees from the person who was begging me to join the company. And that was day one, it was, "No, you can't have any resources, you have no support." And whatever it was that I needed to do or wanted to do or needed to put into my job was absolutely denied. And it was just a shock. It was, I didn't know how to rationally deal with that person because it made absolutely no sense to...

Bjorklund: Now oppositional was the key word for me here. What about for you?

Petrie Sue: I think so. And I would categorize this person as being a whine-and-cheeser because everything is no to them but they'll reel you in. You know, they'll suck you in and then, you know, get the job and everything. Now I think that this person, this gentleman needs to take personal responsibility for, number one, it was his choice to accept the job and then during that interview, I believe people that are interviewing for the job need to ask more and better questions. For an example, I would have asked something in interviewing, for interviewing for any job, what is the reason the last person left? Could you tell me, you know, what are the issues and why are you filling this position? I would find out more so I think the asking questions prior to is very important. Now if he's interviewing with someone else and then he winds up being with this person, what I would use is a technique in communications called fogging. And fogging works really well with a whine-and-cheeser. It's where you say, "You maybe right. Help me understand where you're coming from." When you say you may be right to a whine-and-cheeser, what you're saying to them is and what they hear is that they are right. But that's not actually what you're saying. You're saying there, it might be one little tiny thin thread of truth, I don't know, I need to know more. So again, I think questioning here and digging deeper becomes very, very important. The other that I would do with this person, I would take back my job duties, you know, whatever you want to call it, your job description, whatever it might be and you might say now, "What I need to do is I need to take total control here and understand what my job is and what my resources are. I need your help." And I think whenever you're talking with a difficult person, I think the I-need-your-help works in most cases.

Bjorklund: Yeah, I love that line. I'm thinking that's a great takeaway for people here. What about...

Petrie Sue: Yes, yes. "You may be right, help me understand" is another great one.

Bjorklund: Help me understand. Now I like your quick reference chart on communicating results.

Petrie Sue: Yes.

Bjorklund: So could you throw out a few more examples about, you know, what to say and what's the right way to say something. How you might say, "Let's work together" instead of, "You must do what I say."

Petrie Sue: Right and you bring up a really good point. I think that anything that we choose to use, we have to be really comfortable with the words ourselves. And also be really careful and to your point, try to get rid of the word "you" because the minute you start "you" in a conflict or start using "you" in a conflict or a toxic-person situation, they're taking it personally and they will attack even harder. The one other thing to realize is that these people are way more clever at this behavior than you are. So if I have a resource like the book or like the chart you're talking about, I can go back prior to and I can look and say, "OK, I've heard him say this, I know I used this, what is the better approach?" So I think the exact wording that I could use is, "What do you want me to do?" Without sarcasm, without being cynical, without crossing your arms. And then also maybe another line might be, "What kind of help can I provide?" So I have very specific things where I can requestion them, dig a little deeper and then stay calm and it gets back to that breathing and all the rest of that that we were talking about because the minute you start to lose it, you have now lowered yourself to their level and they are in control. It's like handing them your head on a silver platter. And then they just stomp on it and they're in control.

Bjorklund: You're listening to Marsha Petrie Sue, author of Toxic People. We'll continue now with this AllBusiness podcast. I'm Chris Bjorklund. Is there one specific type of toxic person that is worse than the others?

Petrie Sue: Well, there's one that I found that is more prevalent in the business environment, I think they're very, very difficult because they're dangerous and that's the backstabber. And they are very, very difficult because most people do not understand the damage that a backstabber can do. They're very harmful because what they'll do they is they'll enlist other people and in front, in public, they will say to them, to the person that they want to create the conflict with, they'll say, "Well, all three buddies all agree with me, don't you?" And so they have the bind, so I think we have to call that behavior right then. We cannot wait to take that private. Where I can say, if I'm that person that's having the conflict created on them, I can come back and say, "Do the rest of you really believe this? Is this something that we need to talk about? If so, let's put it on the agenda for next time."

Bjorklund: Do most backstabbers learn how to do that in junior high?

Petrie Sue: Sure. And I think that it even can develop earlier than that because they get the response that they want because it gets right back to people don't know how to respond to them. They start reacting, backstabbers get what they want, they stomp on everybody on the way, and they get the results that they want. And that's the big thing. We're feeding it to them because we're giving them the outcomes.

Bjorklund: I think that's a very important point. I find myself being conflict-averse.

Petrie Sue: Sure.

Bjorklund: So I avoid people like that. If I think someone's toxic I try to get them out of my life unless I am related to them and if I am related to them, I find ways to people between us, you know, being in a group, don't be one-on-one...

Petrie Sue: Right.

Bjorklund: Don't get into controversial topics. I'm a Scandinavian temperament so I find that I try to, kind of keep the peace but it does pile up inside you emotionally.

Petrie Sue: Yes it does.

Bjorklund: When you think at some point, I'm going to tell them what I really think! And that isn't healthy either.

Petrie Sue: Yes that's exactly right. That's just what we don't want. And you know what I think is interesting, Chris, is that when you look around, there are people with that same person. There are other people that have learned how to respond and they will not accept that behavior. So those people now are trained, the backstabbers or whomever, are trained then not to communicate that way with that single person but they'll still do it with you because they get the reaction that they want.

Bjorklund: Right, right. So they are selective then in their toxic behavior.

Petrie Sue: Sure. Yup. Absolutely because they know who it works with and who it doesn't.

Bjorklund: So you touched in your book on a plan for dealing with toxic behavior. Can you take us through, you know, there's got to be a method here that we apply to changing our behavior.

Petrie Sue: Right.

Bjorklund: So you say, start by identifying what type we're dealing with.

Petrie Sue: Right. Identify one of the six types. I think this is critical because then I know which of the six toolboxes I need to go into to figure out the communication that I need to use. I think the second part of identifying them is to understand what you're saying in your own mind to yourself. "Oh boy, here we go again. I'm never going to be able to do this." And we get into that little mental terrorism. You know, so if I can just stop that and I can move myself to say, "You know, I'm really going to look at this from a different point of view. I am going to get a better outcome because I'm a smart person, I've learned new language and I'm going to be a better communicator." So I have to understand--and these are behavioral studies that I've done--is that 77 percent of the time that most adults talk to themselves, they're talking negatively. Just like you were saying. "I can't, I won't be able to, it'll never work, why should even try, here they go back in that old behavior..." And then I buy into it. And when I buy into it, I am giving them the authority and the acceptance that their behavior is OK. If I call the behavior, if I understand where I'm going in my own mind, if I have new tools, they're going to stop responding and reacting that way with me. So it's my job to identify where they are, to understand where I go in my own head, what my own mental terrorism becomes and then to dig deep in my toolbox for a new choice, for a new response to them. So I think those are three keys.

Bjorklund: You say, don't hide from toxic people and I'm thinking, Oh, guilty! So guilty!

Petrie Sue: Guilty as charged!

Bjorklund: But where can you practice your approach. You also coach people on practicing, I mean, you advise people on practicing...

Petrie Sue: Right.

Bjorklund: What, to the mirror?

Petrie Sue: Well, and I think that's a good idea, I think you can do it in your car because many of us spend a lot of time in our car when we're commuting and I think that's a good idea, to take scenarios that you've ever either seen happen or that have happened to you, replay them in your mind and come up with a different response. So that I, it's just like golfing or any sport or anything you do, you create these habits. So what I have to do is unlearn what the bad habit was, relearn some new approaches. And most people already know this but it takes you 21 days of daily focus and daily discipline to change an old habit. So that means I just can't try it two or three times. It means that I have to continue to look at this and practice it and practice it so that in the moment of that toxic person, I am better prepared to use my new habits. And then afterward I have to ask myself, "How did it go for you? Are you satisfied with it? If not, why?" So how can I continue to polish and improve the things that I'm using and the approaches that I'm using?

Bjorklund: I think it's important to sort of pat yourself on the back when you have had a success and even if it's a small one.

Petrie Sue: Right. I totally agree because you do become what you think about. And if you give yourself that pat on the back, you will then plant that positive seed in your mind and you will better be able to replay that in your head rather than dwelling on the negative. Here's something I recommend people do and this is a great one. And I've been doing this for years. You need to have a success journal and I think the success journal can be used for many things. One of them is to decontaminate toxic people because when I go through this like you're saying and if I can say, "Oooh, I did that really well. I'm going to write that down." Because in the moment, so many times, like the three examples we just went through, you just feel totally debilitated. So after those situations, if I can go back to my success journal and I can read about all the cool and groovy things that I've done, then I am boosting myself up rather than tearing myself down. It becomes a habit.

Bjorklund: Well so the whole point of your book though is to put a lot of responsibility on us.

Petrie Sue: Absolutely.

Bjorklund: Instead of pointing the finger at them saying, "Why are they like that?"

Petrie Sue: That's exactly right.

Bjorklund: Often we're asking the wrong questions. which is, you know, "Why are they like this?"

Petrie Sue: Right. And one of the things that we talked about before is that my whole message is about personal responsibility for your outcomes. If it's with toxic people, if it's with your goals, if it's with your life, whatever it is, it is your responsibility to take personal responsibility for the outcomes that you have. So I think that is a really critical message. And it's funny because when I speak on this, I do a whole program on decontaminating toxic people, people come up to me afterward and they'll say, "Well, you mean I can't change other people?" Uh, no.

Bjorklund: Right, right. Are there any other tools that you can give our listeners besides, you mentioned the success journal, I believe you call it? I know Oprah has a gratitude journal so...

Petrie Sue: There, see, it's the same kind of thing.

Bjorklund: It's kind of the same idea. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap this up?

Petrie Sue: Well, there is, and the one thing that I think we have to realize is that one of my favorite tools is using the like-best-next-time. I can train other people to give me feedback using the like-best-next-time and I can choose to give a follow-up and feedback to people using the like-best-next-time. We get in the habit of saying "You coulda, you shoulda, you mighta" and that resolves nothing. It just creates consternation and problems. So if I can go back to them and say, "You know what I like best?" And find something that is positive. And there's going to be times where I really have to dig and then tell them what can be changed for next time. If I have a toxic person in my life, it it's my boss, if I want them to help me grow and learn, I might go back to them and say, "I so appreciate your helping me and giving me input. What will really help me and be more effective for me is that if you give it to me to help me something that I did well and then tell me what I can change for next time." Because when I hear, "I coulda, I shoulda, I mighta", it's really not useful. Because that's history, that's past. So I think that like-best-next-time is a really good tool for all situations.

Bjorklund: Marsha Petrie Sue, thanks for talking to us today. I enjoyed it. Take good care.

Petrie Sue: Thank you.

Bjorklund: The book is Toxic People: Decontaminate Difficult People at Work Without Using Weapons or Duct Tape. The author, Marsha Petrie Sue. If you have any comments about this AllBusiness podcast or would like to recommend a future guest, send your emails to podcasts@allbusiness.com. I'm Chris Bjorklund, thanks for listening.