Chris Bjorklund: You’re listening to the AllBusiness podcast. I’m Chris Bjorklund. If you’re getting this through iTunes and RSS feed or an online streaming-media player, you can hear interviews with other experts at AllBusiness.com.

Bjorklund: Traveling on business usually means a lot of eating out in hotels. You know the drill--stale toast, soggy cereal, bad coffee. Ken Walker, the business travel blogger for AllBusiness, enjoys eating well. So he’s found lots of ways to avoid mediocre meals. Ken, I’m wondering, how does someone like yourself, who loves food, how do you deal with eating on the road?

Ken Walker: Ah, you know, it took me awhile to get used to it. Because at first, you’re on the road and you’re on an expense account and all food is great. It’s all free. It’s all just wonderful. You go to the hotel buffet for breakfast and you can’t believe how much food they have there. And it’s exciting and it’s fun and it’s wonderful and it takes a little while, I would say, eight or nine months before you walk down to the hotel buffet and you see the same fare and you say to yourself, “I know that that bacon looks good and it looks lean and it looks thick but it’s soggy. I know from experience. And I know those potatoes are dry because they’ve been sitting there all morning long. And I know that the salmon is probably yesterday’s sushi, it’s got a film on it. I know that the eggs are extra cold from sitting in the refrigerator for three days.” And it’s not really as good as you think it is, particularly because they’re charging you 20, 25 bucks a pop to walk through there so…

Bjorklund: So there’s nothing there worth eating?

Walker: I don’t think so, unless you’re just--and my wife can eat breakfast every day for the rest of her life and she really likes it. So you can find that there. You can also find oatmeal or maybe fresh waffles. But do you want your company to spend $25 for a bowl of Frosted Flakes? Probably not. So I look for something a little bit better and when I’m on the road, it’s eating a big breakfast I think is a part of not getting sick and staying healthy, so...

Bjorklund: I agree.

Walker: …breakfast is a bigger deal to me than I think it is to a lot of people so I try to find something somewhere before I get into the office.

Bjorklund: So you try to get out of the hotel then?

Walker: Oh I do, absolutely I do. You know, I tend to walk to a lot of places too. I don’t stay too much farther away from my office than I have to so I rarely rent a car and if I’m walking, the day before I have to go to work I’ll walk around the hotel about three or four blocks, six blocks in three or four different directions and just get a feel for where I am. If it’s a new place, if I haven’t been there before. And I will look for little cafes and little coffee shops. They usually make their own croissants, they make their own ham-and-cheese and egg sandwiches. You can get an incredible breakfast in, you know, Larry’s Coffee Shop if, you know, if you find the little hole in the wall. It’s there. I also look for like a line, if it’s in the morning, if it’s 7 o’clock, 7:30 in the morning and there’s a line six people deep to get coffee and a breakfast sandwich, chances are the place has been around for a while or at least it’s impressing the locals so it’s worth jumping in.

Bjorklund: Well, before we start talking about some of the interesting breakfasts you’ve found when you venture out, I wanted to find out whether you ever use room service and are there any advantages to that? I mean, certainly it’s expensive.

Walker: It is expensive and it’s getting more expensive, which is humorous, I think. I noticed the other day that my hotel, the menu for room service in the room, most of the items were $2 to $4 more expensive than they were in the restaurant. If you walk right downstairs and walk over to the restaurant and look at the exact same menu, it’s $2 to $4 per item cheaper and, you know, I thought, wow, because they charge you a room-service fee and then they charge you a 15 percent or an 18 percent gratuity fee and then they charge you extra per item so they’re really raking you over the coals to bring you food.

Bjorklund: Well sometimes you do tip on top of that if you don’t pay attention. I’ve done that before.

Walker: Yup. A lot of people do.

Bjorklund: A lot of people do, huh?

Walker: It’s not expected, even though room-service people will stand there and look at you funny. You’re staring right at the receipt and the receipt will list a room-service fee and it’s my understanding that that room-service fee goes toward the people assembling the dish, covering it, keeping it warm, getting it together and bringing it up to your room. That’s doesn’t include the gratuity.

Bjorklund: Oh I see.

Walker: Most hotels add a separate charge. Up and above the room-service fee there’s an 18 percent delivery fee. That is the tip and if that’s on there, you are not expected to put anything else above and beyond but a lot of people do.

Bjorklund: I read somewhere where there was a $12 charge just for the tray.

Walker: Yup, some places do. I know that JW Marriott in San Francisco has a standard $10 room-service fee and then there’s 18 percent added to your meal, which you are already paying $6 or $8 more for anyway. So you’re doing the mental arithmetic while you look through the menu and your brain tells you, “Oh, that’s about a $25 meal.” And then it comes and you sign for this $46 delivery and you wonder, holy cow! How was I off so bad? And that’s what it is. You’re paying for that. And I called the manager once and asked him, “Can you break down those charges for me so I know just exactly where they go?” He said, “First and foremost, we consider in-room dining”--he wouldn’t call it room service--“in-room dining is a”--oh, what did he call it, oh--“it’s a privilege. It’s a privilege for you to get to enjoy in-room dining.” And I thought, it’s not a privilege, it’s a pain in the keester because the only reason, well, most business people, the only reason they order room service is out of convenience because they’re busy. They’re working, they’re on the internet, they’re assembling spreadsheets, they’re doing something that’s keeping them from going out and enjoying a nice meal with people. So they’re stuck ordering something and they’re paying extra for it and they’re not really happy to do it because the food’s never as hot. Ordering soup through room service is just a disaster. I’ve ordered bisque before through room service that actually congealed that fine little skin over the top of it before it could even make it to my room. And I’m paying extra for that. So a long time ago, I said no. I said room service is just, I’m just not going to do it. I’ve had Chinese delivery that’s better and fresher and hotter so I just don’t do the room service thing anymore.

Bjorklund: So in breakfast, let’s start with breakfast. Have you had any interesting ones on the road lately?

Walker: Oh a few, I suppose. You know, I don’t think I’ve been in an IHOP, an International House of Pancakes, since I was six years old when my parents took me. And I was in Davenport, Iowa, and it was 9 degrees and I just couldn’t handle another Marriott Courtyard breakfast buffet so I walked out and I asked my GPS, my handheld, to find me a restaurant within five miles of where I sat and it listed a bunch that I’d never heard of and it listed International House of Pancakes and I thought, why not? It’s been forever. I’ll try it. And you know what? It turned out to be a really interesting experience but it was one of the best breakfasts I’d ever had. They have sirloin tips in béarnaise sauce with a side of pancakes with butter pecan syrup. It was just outrageous. Their menu has really expanded and even though I was the youngest person in there by about 20 years, it was a great experience. It was very quiet. There were not hundreds of people, shoulder to shoulder, fighting for bandwidth on a wireless internet connection somewhere. I sat at the little round spinner barstool next to a trucker who told me a few stories about being on the road during the holidays and so forth and I escaped after about 45 minutes having a really nice breakfast in a place that, you know, ordinarily I might allow myself about nine minutes to run over to the buffet and get something. It was worth the extra time and the extra effort.

Bjorklund: I sounds like there’s a lot of personal benefits to getting out of the hotel.

Walker: There really is. You miss so much when you don’t and office travelers tend to stay in the hotel. It makes their expense reporting a little bit easier because there’s one receipt, you know, that comes with all of your meals. But I honestly think that you miss a lot of what life experience there is for you when you don’t go out of the hotel. There are people in California that you will meet that are entirely different than the people from Davenport, Iowa, or in New York City. And I think that’s what makes us a little bit more the wiser and the more experienced and the more world traveled, as they say, if you’ve had breakfast in a French cafe and you had breakfast in Davenport coffee shop, well, you’ve seen not just different food but you’ve seen different cultures as well. So it’s worth it to get out and get around.

Bjorklund: What about the concierge? Do you find that the concierge in a hotel can help you with a meal, whether it’s...

Walker: Oh, never. Absolutely not.

Bjorklund: Never, never. OK.

Walker: The only thing a concierge can help you with if you go to him and say, “Hey, I found a restaurant that I want to get into. Will you make reservations for me?” He can do that. That’s his job and that’s what he’s supposed to do. But if you go to him or her and ask, “Hey, where is a good place to eat?” They have a list of people that kick back to him, either cash or some sort of bonus, free meals or something for recommending their restaurant to a patron. He may or may not have eaten there but somebody’s paying him a dollar a shot or whatever to send people their way. So if you want an honest appraisal of where to go to eat, you have to really get creative. Asking the concierge or a hotel manager is a bad idea. I tend to ask the locals and it depends on where I want to eat, what I want to eat determines what question I ask. I mean, for example, if someone came up to me while I was at home and asked me, “Hey! Where’s a nice place to eat?” I would assume they want an expensive place. And I would point them to such, not necessarily a place that I would eat in. But if you walk up to someone and say, “Excuse me, where do the locals go to unwind?” Or if you’re walking on the streets of New York City and you ask a beat cop, “Where do you guys go for a good slice of pizza?” You will find that if you direct your questions that way, they will be more likely to tell you their favorite little haunt. The best pizza I’ve ever had was from a little place in Manhattan that a cop pointed me out to. I never in my life would have found it had he not said, “You’ve got to go around the corner, you’ve got to cross the street, you go next to the deli there and there’s a little place with a little sunflower in the window. Best pizza ever!” And it was. It was outstanding.

Bjorklund: The cops know, don’t they?

Walker: The cops know! You know, another thing you can do, depending on where you are, the answers that you’ll get will vary tremendously. Let’s say you go, you drop into a museum and you go up to the information booth where you would buy a ticket and you ask where they would go to eat. Chances are, museum docents and patrons would point you to a trendy, more eclectic, modern sort of place. If you’re in the grocery store or a market like a produce market, and you ask the local produce guy where he takes his family for dinner, he will tell you something entirely different because he knows produce, he knows fresh fruits and vegetables and he knows where the restaurants are that have them and sell them. So I think, you know, if you want to find a local place, so many travelers just go where the masses go and usually the restaurants that have all the people sitting with the little conventioneer’s tags on, those are just convenient. I mean, they happen to be right there and if you’re not picky or you don’t mind eating in another chain restaurant or another Chili’s or another Friday’s then that’s fine. But if you want to sample the local cuisine you need to really get out and ask the local people where they go. And you have to be careful how you ask those questions because you could drive yourself into a corner if you’re just looking for a nice lunch and you ask somebody, “Hey! Where’s a nice place to eat?” You may wind up spending $50 for a lunch that wasn’t that great, so…

Bjorklund: Any memorable meals that you’ve had besides, you’ve talked about that pizza, you talked about the pancakes at IHOP.

Walker: Oh my gosh, there are so many. Because I tend to, if I’m traveling to a place, I’ll get on the internet and I’ll search because--and people think I’m crazy but you know, when you’re on a business trip, the things you remember most when you’re done are, you know, the job, the customer, that sort of thing but you remember the meals and you remember the people and you might remember your hotel if there was a memorable experience. But chances are, you’re going to remember the food. It’s the way people are. So if I’m going to New Orleans I’ll get on the internet and I’ll start digging, you know, there’s so much food there. Where are the best places for the different kinds of Creole gumbo, etouffee, jambalaya shrimp. If you’re going to San Francisco, get online and look. They’re famous for seafood and Dungeness crab is one of the big things that they have that you’ll find, if you dig a little bit, it’s only available in months that end in “R” so October, November, September, December, they have fresh Dungeness crab and the rest of the year, they have other things. So I think one of the most memorable, it comes to mind immediately is a little place called Mirabelle in San Francisco. Just a couple of months ago, it was before Halloween, Dungeness crab was in season and I went to Mirabelle because my host, my customer at the time, told me he takes his wife there for their anniversary and it’s not too expensive. It’s just a little bit far away from his house for him to go but it was only six blocks where we sat. So I walked in and it’s the quaintest little cafe. They have an excellent bar, excellent drinks and their menu changes about every 30 days. There’s a chef that writes out a new menu and it changes about every month. That month was Bolivian chili crab. It was a fresh Dungeness crab with all kinds of greens, seasonings, garlic and green chilies steamed and dumped over the top of it. I was, it was just outstanding. You know, that brings to mind the saying, when you’re traveling and you’re by yourself, sitting in a table is fine. I mean, there’s people that are confident enough to do it. I prefer to sit at the bar and I don’t necessarily drink when I’m alone and I’m traveling. Too many people that I respect and admire have told me, “Drinking while you’re alone on the road is not a good thing to get, you know, to make a habit of.” So, if you sit at the bar, order a diet Coke or some water or some tea and a menu. You can strike up a conversation with a bartender a whole lot easier than you can with a waiter or a waitress because waiters and waitresses don’t have the time necessarily to stand there and talk to you for 10 minutes. So not only can you have a good meal and talk to the bartender about it, you can talk to the bartender about excellent meals at other locations. I mean, they’re regular people too. They’re not going to insist that you eat at their place all the time. They’re going to tell you where they go and they’re going to tell you where other good bars and other good restaurants are and they may even tell you the names of the people who work there, so you kind of have an in when you get to a new place and say, “Hey, Gerry from Mirabelle recommended that I eat here. Is Meredith working today?” You’re already in. You’re already, you know, you’ve warmed the cockles of their hearts, they’ve got a chair for you and they’re ready to give you good service.

Bjorklund: A lot of good insider tips, I suppose. Now, you said to bring up the feta, ricotta and cottage cheese story before we go.

Walker: Yeah, that was the straw, I think, that broke the camel’s back as far as me eating in hotel restaurants goes. When you travel a lot--and travelers tend to pick one hotel chain because they collect points, right? They collect Hilton Honors points, or Hyatt Gold Points or Marriott Points and after 10 or 12 Marriotts, I noticed that they all seem to run together and it’s because the menus are almost the same. It’s hilarious how a Marriott in Miami and a Marriott in San Francisco and a Marriott in Manhattan will offer an identical breakfast menu or lunch menu or dinner menu. So I noticed something when I was in, I think it was in Georgia, and I saw this thing on a menu. It was crepes with ricotta cheese and a fresh strawberry dressing and I thought, “Man, that sounds really good. I’m going to try that sometime.” And I wound up in California a few weeks later and I thought, now is the time because California has fresher strawberries than Georgia would at this time of year and I’ll try it. So I ordered it and what I got was pancakes stuffed with not ricotta cheese, which is kind of sweet and dessert-like, as you probably know, it was stuffed with feta cheese. It tasted like a bad Caesar’s salad wrapped in a pancake with anchovies. It was the worst thing ever. And I waited and the waitress didn’t come back so I got up and I walked into the kitchen and I knocked on the door and I opened the door and I poked my head around and I found what I thought was the chef. He’s in a white coat with a chef’s hat and the name tag and three or four thermometers stuck in his pocket and I thought, that’s the man. So I asked him about the crepes and he spoke no English at all and as I tried to stress to him and understand he put the wrong cheese in the crepe, when I said ricotta he thought I meant cottage cheese, so he’s taking me by the elbow and pointing and trying to tell me in Spanish that the cottage cheese is on the buffet and I didn’t want cottage cheese, I didn’t want feta cheese, I just wanted ricotta cheese and I finally noticed on the table, this stainless steel prep table in the kitchen, he’s got a white bucket of liquid, fetid, stinky cheese and there’s the label, feta cheese. And there’s another similar bucket with a label, ricotta cheese and I’m sure the cottage cheese in the buffet came out of another similar bucket and I thought, this is not a chef at all. This is basically a glorified short-order cook who knows how to assemble nine different dishes out of 16 different tubs and this is why the breakfast at the Marriott in California is the same as the breakfast in the Marriott in Miami. So that was the last straw. That’s why I said, “No. I’m just not going to do this anymore. I’m going to find a different place.”

Bjorklund: No more buffets.

Walker: That’s right.

Bjorklund: In closing, Ken, why don’t you again underscore some of the personal benefits of just getting out of Dodge, getting out of the hotel while you’re working?

Walker: Well, I’m kind of a people person. I like to talk to people. My wife will tell you I’ve embarrassed her on more than one occasion just walking up and talking to people. But I like to watch people too and I like to experience different cultures and if you travel, part of what you bring back is not just the job you did for your customer or for your company but you bring back a sense of where you were. Some of it’s geographic. You bring back a sense of the hills of Virginia or the mountains of Colorado or the beaches of California. You also bring back a sense of taste, a sense of what you ate. Now if you sit in the hotel, you’re not doing anything differently than you would if you went to the same hotel in your own city. So I think it’s hugely important to be able to tell your kids, your friends, your family--part of, you know, you being away from them, is bringing something back and saying, “Hey, when you kids grow up, we’re going to take you to such and such and see, you know, Walt Disney World,” or whatever it is, “and we’re going to eat these delicious little rock crabs that I found that are so good.” I think that’s a piece of it. If you travel to a new place, you stay in a hotel, you go to work, you come back to the hotel and you fly home, you didn’t really travel anywhere. You just got frustrated and impatient with doing the same thing in a different place away from those that you love and I think that part of making the best of that situation means getting out and looking around and sort of seeing what’s around you.

Bjorklund: Thanks for joining us today.

Walker: Sure enough, Chris. Thanks for calling.

Bjorklund: You can read more about Ken Walker’s eating adventures on the road in his blog on AllBusiness.com. I’m Chris Bjorklund. Thanks for listening.